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Nora Skinker (Morton)

Jeez. Ok, yes, if atheists were meeting in a certain place, then I would have said a mentally crazed Christian killed a bunch of atheists. If that had happened, would you not even mention that the perpetrator was a Christian? In this case, had the killings NOT taken place in a church, I would never had used the term “atheist” at all. To pretend there is no irony in either case, is missing (what I consider to be) a pertinent element. Attacks on Christians are becoming more & more commonplace & whether that applies here or not is not necessarily resolved at all. Had he attacked these poor souls in a bowling alley, we wouldn’t be having this conversation at all. The FACT is: a mentally crazed, clean shaven, white, 26 year old ATHEIST did this & a family needs help. Hitler? Really, guys? Oy. 

Edwin (Ned) Hege

In case you missed some of the election results, particularly VA:

- To start, Reps held 66 to 34.

- After the election Reps held 51 to 49. 

- - Recounts are only performed when the margin is less than 1%. 5 Rep seats will be recounted and 1 Dem seat will be recounted.

Stay tuned!!

Jerry Morgan

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Actually, my ONLY intention was to make a plea to forum members to consider helping a family, who has lost 8 family members, to afford funerals for their lost babies, children & and a young mother who was 8 months pregnant. But I appreciate your expressing an opinion, Jerry. I might be called an “ignorant slut” yet! 😜

Joan Ruggles (Young)

Hey Nora, much as you continue to plea for it, nobody is calling you an ignorant slut besides you yourself. As others have pointed out, the killings in Texas were not religiously inspired in any way. Yet you bring into the discussion a fact about the man's religious beliefs or lack thereof. Why? When confronted about why you would do this, you fall back on the tired old Trumpism "political correctness". What does this have to do with political correctness? You're inserting a distraction that has nothing to do with the reasons for which this angry man, pissed off at his mother-in-law mowed down her congregation. You even fall back on the lunacy of your argument by saying - oh I was just pleading for people to give money to the relatives. Again, what does that have to do with whether or not the killer was as religious as or as Christian as his victims? Also, if you care to look into the facts, the killer killed himself and was not stopped by a corageous "armed NRA member".  

As Jack has said Nora, "the stage is yours". He's dropped the mike and has checked out of this debate. I did too a few months ago, but came back for one last time in support of Jack and Stephen. It's all yours Nora, enlighten us. 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Thank you for the recap from your perspective, Joan. Glad the discussion motivated it. I think it’s an important enough discussion to be shared further so here goes with, what I hope is, a more clarifying explanation: my reference to a ‘mentally crazed atheist” was a perfectly acceptable description of the perpetrator. It shows irony, mainly because of where the crime took place. As I mentioned, which I think is a valid point: if the assailant HAD been Christian & had opened fire on a congregation of atheists, the mention of “a crazed Christian” would, likewise, be appropriate.  My reference to the NRA member was yet another irony, since the only legal gun in the crime was the one which stopped the perpetrator from continuing his rampage. I never called him “courageous” (though I think he is) nor did I ever mention his killing the perpetrator. Interestingly, instead of mounting the argument for gun control, the opposition has been over my use of the term “atheist” as though it were some kind of an insult to all atheists. Not so. The fact that this particular killer was a maniac should have no reflection on other atheists anywhere. Making that leap was not intended. Nor, in my view, ever should have been made. I can honestly say, as a Christian myself, if a report described an assailant as a ‘crazed Christian’ who attacked atheists,  I would never take it personally. Why do you? That question seems to lie at the crux of what is wrong with political correctness today, i.e, look at what my using the word “atheist” has wrought: words directed at me - disgusting, offensive, ignorant, Hitler-like. Is it any wonder people are afraid to express themselves at all? Finally, the only reason I mentioned the case on this forum at all, was to bring attention to an unusually sad situation for a completely innocent & beyond devastated family. As to the “ignorant slut”. Joan, all I can say is, it’s called “humor”, girlfriend. 

Jack Mallory

Not for flags, not for anthems. When we truly serve, we serve freedom. A salute to my fellow veterans, and all others who support freedom of thought.

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Catch some Caps games with me, Glen! They’re looking good. Case in point: tonight’s win over the Pens. The ICEMEN cometh! 

Also, happened upon a great rum cake recipe recently. If anybody wants it, let me know & I’ll happily post it. 

A fundraising update on the Texas shooting victims: over $1M has been raised for the victims’ families & $240K for the John Holcombe family, specifically. Heartwarming. 

God bless ALL of our veterans! 

Robert Hall

Glen Hirose

                              Maybe this is the year Nori....

     It would be awesome to win the Cup in it's 100th Anniversary Year.

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Glen, we’ll need a hitman with Crosby in the crosshairs! But, yes, sure would be grand to see Ovie carry that ever-elusive Cup!

I invite everyone to take a moment & search “Food City Salute - Utube” to see a short & sweet Veterans Day commercial. 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Gotta LOVE those Caps!!

Joan Ruggles (Young)

In honor of Veteran's Day and to all those who enlisted or were reluctantly drafted, here are some photos from an exhibit I saw this week at the Whitney Museum in New York. The show was about the history of protesting in America. This part of the exhibit was about protests to the war in Vietnam. 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Thanks, Joan. A reminder of the role The Arts played in that particularly angry American chapter, is timely, coming on the heels of the recent TV series. 

And, speaking of museum exhibits, The Museum of The Bible is scheduled to officially open near the Smithsonian in DC on Nov. 17th. There are pre-tours all this week, however. Apparently, it’s 430,000 square feet of state-of-the-art technological wonder, bringing the history of The Bible to life for the world to absorb & better understand. (There is even an ancient artifact from The Dead Sea Scrolls). To relieve many minds, the museum promises not to represent any interpretation, sect or set of beliefs, but focuses on The Book itself. Check out the many features & photos online. 

Stephen Hatchett

Joan, I won't make it  to see that exhibit on the history of protest in the US, but I'm curious about one thing -- violent vs non-violent.  My knowledge of the history of protest is too limited.  Seems like non-violent protests have a reasonable success rate -- civil rights, suffrage,  But when the protesters themselves have initiated violence, or reacted violently to violence -- race riots, some labor strikes, some anti-war  protests, public reaction has had a backfiring effect.  Did the exhibit have much to say on that issue?  

No question in my mind that real humans have a darn hard time resisting a violent reaction to violence initiated against them. Resisting that seemingly inate reaction takes a really strong leader with a lot of faith in non-violence.  Maybe we, people generally, also tend to have an inate sympathy for non-violent resistance? (I wish, anyway.)

Glen Hirose

         Happy Belated Birthday again; this time to Nori.

                                       This could be the year...

Nora Skinker (Morton)

What birthday? Did I have a birthday? Musta missed it. They whizz by every 5 minutes now. 😜

But, thanks, Glen. And to all who sent birthday wishes privately. Nice to know we don’t ‘go it’ alone, isn’t it? 

Aging is front & center these days, since I am in rehearsals playing a little old lady in a retirement home for opera singers. The play is “Quartet” - a Ron Harwood British comedy made into a Maggie Smith movie a couple years ago, & directed by Dustin Hoffman. Becoming this bent-over, slightly-batty old soul is quite a preview for things to (quickly?) come & I find myself noticing those similar “boomers” moving quietly about their lives when I’m out in public. Being closely aligned with the elderly through the years when my mom was living-assisted, coupled with my years affiliated with Meals On Wheels, has opened my eyes to the difficulties of old age & I am acutely aware of what is creeping up. From what I perceive, the one thing I hold up hope for is the phrase “age is what you make it to be” & is spot on. Unless one is dealing with horrific physical discomfort, we each have the power to guide our spirit to fulfillment ...or not. I see that truth often & the play reaffirms the unique ‘will’ each of us has to keep the good stuff like love, laughter, hope, faith, peace & purpose in our daily lives. Here, in our 72nd year, share your thoughts & fears. We can learn from one another as we move forward. My 103 year old, great Aunt Mary’s final words were “don’t touch the principle!” Mine will probably be the deep & reverent war-cry “Go Caps!” What do you think YOURS will be? 

That’ll teach you to wish me a happy birthday, Glen! 😎

Joan Ruggles (Young)

Stephen, I'm afraid the exhibit at the Whitney had not much to say on the distiction between violent vs non-violent protests since it was simply presenting the various ways that protests have manifested themselves throughout history via poster art, videos, art instalations, etc. It is after all an art museum. But it was pretty thorough about the range of subject matter from women's rights, civil rights, anti-war, AIDS, etc. Only thing missing for me was recent protests which I can't blame them for, since the year isn't even over yet and this exhibit must have been months/years in the planning. The exhibit is called "An Incomplete History of Protests", and it's limited to what's in their collection. But it aims to show how artists can be a vital force in expressing the unease among the poulace. 

Jane Cosson (Souzon)

At the risk of going down "Divisive Road", i'm going to mention my reaction to watching the Ken Burns doc. on Vietnam last night.  It covered the period that included March 1970, when my husband was killed there in a plane crash at his 'detachment' base in Danang, and i started watching the show with some fear that it might bring back too much for me.  And maybe that was underlying my reaction when i saw the last bit, about Kent State.  Of course the image of the girl kneeling over the body, arms raised for help, has never left us, but this film had about 10 minutes of the surrounding events, e.g.showed.Guard soldiers loading their guns with live ammunition--somehow that got to me: they're getting ready to kill the students--so intentional.   I guess in the back of my mind I long ago convinced myself Kent State was the result of a couple of too young to have guns Guardsmen panicking,or similar,  ie totally unforeseen, unintentional..   Finally it showed the Guard retreating, the whole scene apparently starting to wind down, until a small group of them inexplicably turned around and headed back toward the students, and shot at them, and you know the rest.  When the show was over, i started crying, and said to my partner, "do you think that could happen again?"

Stephen Hatchett

Joan, thanks.   Now I'm curious if you could  get, from that Whitney museum exhibition, a sense of what makes some images, and maybe a few words,  so powerful?  Like this one, which grabbed me,  from last January's Women's March:

Did you find certain posters, or other art pieces, to be particularly memorable?   Can you say why?

Among reasons for my curiosity, I'm married to an artist.  Some things grab me, some just don't, and although I have no training in art after 8th grade, my wife, at least, thinks I have an eye for what "works" and what doesn't, whether it is very abstract or not at all -- and she uses that. But I struggle to bring to conciousness what it is that "grabs" me.

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Stephen, as only a performing artist, but surrounded by fine & graphic artists, may I suggest that art isn’t art unless it makes one “feel” ? Or is that too flimsy or vague? 

Jane, I can only imagine your state of emotion. I lost no one close to me in that war, but was crying like a baby through much of that series. For me, the unfolding of events was more highly charged NOW than when I was living through it. Perhaps the value of human life has become more deeply entrenched as I’ve aged. For you, with such depth of loss, there can be no comparison. I admire your courage in revisiting that devastating chapter & shiver with you at the thought of it recurring. 

Joan Ruggles (Young)

Stephen, while I appreciate your delving into what was the focus of the exhibit, I'm afraid what you're asking is a term paper on the exhibit. Ha! I'm not diminishing your thoughtfulness, but like you say it's very personal to each viewer what grabs you and what doesn't. It's unlikely any one image will grab everyone the same way. Maybe you should make a trip to NYC and see it yourself!

Stephen Hatchett

Joan, if the exhibit currently at the Whitney somehow gets to San Francisco, we will go see it.  Of course the exhibit IS the fully illustrated term paper.  I did look up the exhibit online and found  -- not much useful, includig some blather about how poster art is "design", not art.  I think Nora is basically right -- if it has direct emotional impact, that IS art.  Certain photographs leap to mind like the Kent State image Jane refered to and some others from the Vietnam war, Dorothea Lange's images from the Great Depression, ...  and some much more joyful ones like some of Jack's.   Aristotle tried to put his fingers on the issue of good art, but reading that was rather like reading the phone book (remember those :) )  for me. Maybe the emerging science of neuropsychology will be able to  shed some real light.

Jane Cosson (Souzon)

Nori, thanks for your message, and yes i've been wondering why the stronger reaction 45 years later. I think you're right, one reason would be we have more appreciation for value of life now, but when in doubt,I  (ever the psych major)  always go to the most fundamental, ie Darwinian/survival-related explanation for behaviors, so here i'm thinking that while humans are in the thick of scary things, as we all were to varying degrees back then, their  emotional defenses are engaged, eg. i was basically numb for a long time--functional, but numb.  Now, numbness long gone, the horror just sashays right on in. 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

SO well put, Jane. Horror sashays in. And one can know in advance what will trigger it: i.e. holidays, certain melodies, funerals, to name a few.  It’s those triggers that sneak up when you least expect it, that are so unnerving.  Even after years. It seems that tragic loss is always a knife in the heart. With time, it just doesn’t twist as much.