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12/14/19 03:13 PM #10117    

 

Jack Mallory

Don't know the Voss book, Nora, but it looks interesting. For the last five years or so, the VA has been adopting a number of "alternative" health modes like yoga, tai chi, meditation, acupuncture, etc. to meet physical and mental health needs. Especially apropos with the over-prescription of pain meds.

I am familiar with the Shulkin story. But my VA Primary Care doc would probably caution me not to read it. My blood pressure and moral injury issues would not be well served by reading a detailed account of Trump's Mar al Lago buds pushing the VA towards privatization. 

I understand there's big bucks to be made if the private sector takes over the health care for all us killing machines, but I'd rather my health care were driven by concern for my health rather than the profit motive.


12/14/19 05:52 PM #10118    

 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Voss was particular impressive with his kind & even handed outlook on privatization & other lightly touched-on issues. He maintains (what you undoubtedly know) that the VA has come a long way over the last few years & though he recognizes value in privatization for some, for others it is the aligning with other vets (who understood his own PTSD story) which has been most helpful. Privatization is lacking that all important element of the journey back to mental stability. (Seems to me putting veteran groups together privately should not be all that difficult). Another drawback to privatization is the danger of adding drugs prescribed by private doctors to the drug & alcohol problems vets often come in with, exacerbating their problems. From an interview it is easy to simplify & I am eager to expand on what both men were sharing, by reading their perspectives. 
I expect, since I've been good, Santa will bring those publications down the chimney this year. :)


12/14/19 09:42 PM #10119    

 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

After grounding the Lightening tonight, that's 10 out of the last 11 road wins, Glen! SHWEET! 


12/14/19 10:09 PM #10120    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

This is from Laurence Tribe. Love, Joanie

https://patriotsandprogressives.com/index.php/2019/12/14/laurence-tribe-make-trump-the-oj-simpson-of-presidents/
 


12/15/19 12:36 AM #10121    

 

Helen Lambie (Goldstein)


12/15/19 07:15 AM #10122    

 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Finally some levity! Love it! 


12/15/19 07:52 AM #10123    

 

Jack Mallory

Many Amazon books can be previewed through the "see inside this book" feature. The preface and table of contents of the Voss book Nora recommends is accessible this way, and suggest the book may be a very good introduction to the important topic of moral injury among military and veterans.

https://www.amazon.com/Where-War-Ends-Recovering-Meditation-ebook/dp/B07PQNZL5X

The rest of the preface, and undoubtedly the book itself, explain the discomfort many vets feel with any sweeping portrayal as "heroes." It should also make clear the damage done by their Commander in Chief's description of them as "killing machines." This by a man who has clearly made NO effort to understand the complexity of these issues. 

My friend Jonathan Shay introduced the term "moral injury" to the treatment of combat veterans in his book, Achilles in Vietnam. I talked to him the other night about the potential damage to both vets and society in Trump's classifying veterans this way. He is as horrified as I am. 

Achilles in Vietnam is the seminal work on moral injury and what Jonathan refers to as "the destruction of character." His follow-up book, Odysseus in America, in which I make a brief appearance, deals most specifically with the fighters' return from war. 
https://www.amazon.com/Achilles-Vietnam-Combat-Undoing-Character-ebook/dp/B003L77XA4

https://www.amazon.com/Odysseus-America-Combat-Trauma-Homecoming-ebook/dp/B003L77X2M
 


12/15/19 08:34 AM #10124    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

The book sounds so important . Sounds like such an important subject of the emotional injuries of veterans in combat. They have their self before war and the emotioanl traumas and moral injuries after being in war. Love, Joanie


12/15/19 10:19 AM #10125    

 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Happily, presidents as well as the public at large are learning more & more about the complexities concerning this issue, as well as many others. As for labels, whether our military men & women are referred to as our "fighting forces", "war mongers" or "killing machines" they are not monolithic & should not be referred to as any one thing. Where some may  be insulted by terms, others stand by them proudly & still others are not preoccupied by labels at all. All of whom prove they are individuals who are willing to make sacrifices for us, and for whom, like Trump, we are grateful. In that way, they are precious & alike. 

 


12/15/19 12:36 PM #10126    

 

Jay Shackford

 

“Whoa, mercy, mercy me

“Oh things ain’t what they used to be, no, no

“Where have all the bad guys gone

“Mar-a-Largo, Mar-a-Largo, Mar-a-Largo

“Mercy, mercy me”

Stealing and updating lyrics from Marvin Gaye’s 1968 classic hit song, let’s look at the actions of a few of the most vocal defenders of Donald T. Trump: 

Lindsey Graham – Once a sidekick of the late Senator John McCain and former Senator Joe Lieberman who were known for hobnobbing around the globe as members of the Foreign Affairs Committee (mainly Iraq and Afghanistan), Lindsey never had what it takes to make it on his own.  He always hooks his wagon to people who had acquired (rightly or wrongly) positions of power in hopes that some of that magic would rub off on him. 

Now Graham is one of the staunchest defenders of Old Bone Spurs.  In 1968, he led the GOP fight for impeaching Bill Clinton, warning his colleagues to keep an open mind, let the facts speak for themselves and not to jump to conclusions.  This time around Lindsey is singing a different tune.  “I’m not trying to pretend to be a fair juror here,” Graham admitted in a recent television interview.  

In Graham’s opinion, having a consensual sexual affair with a staffer and then lying about it to protect his family is a much more serious and impeachable crime than withholding $391 million in military aid desperately needed to fight the Russians until the newly elected President of Ukraine went live on CNN to announce an investigation into Hunter and Joe Biden, Trump’s likely rival in the upcoming 2020 presidential election.  No wonder the McCain family refused to select Lindsey as a pallbearer at John McCain’s funeral.  They recognized Graham for what he is – soft, deceitful, back-stabbing, weak and a coward.  Or, as a good buddy of mine from the backwoods of rural Alabama might say – he’s a tried and true “southern snake.” 

Hell, had we known that committing an impeachable act is all about sex we would have called Stormy, Karen and dozens of other women to testify before the House Intelligence and Judiciary committees.  

And what about Moscow Mitch – the guy who announced his allegiance to Old Bone Spurs on Trump TV (Fox News) by saying Trump “will never” be convicted in the Senate and that every aspect of his Senate trial will be coordinated very closely with the White House.  Very interesting, or as Joan noted, it appears that the jury (the U.S. Senate) is working directly with the accused (Donald T. Trump and his White House lawyers) in writing the jury instructions even before the case comes to trial.  

Perhaps Trump has something on the Moscow Mitch and his wife, Transportation Secretary Elaine Chou, who has two main concerns in her life – never having a bad hair day (she refuses to do outside appearances) and protecting her family’s shipping and other business deals with Putin and his cronies.  As Nancy says, “all roads lead to Moscow.” 

 

 

 


12/15/19 01:41 PM #10127    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Jay that was such a good summary of the chaotic state of affairs. Just another comment about moscow Mitch, he didn't even allow hearings for Merrick Garland and said he would work it so Republican picks would still get approved to go on the Supreme Court even if the situation was reversed....he said he would thwart every policy of Obamas. The Dems are trying to work with Trump in free trade etc. Love joanie

12/15/19 02:02 PM #10128    

 

Jack Mallory

Nora--please provide just the tiniest smidgen of evidence that there are serving military or veterans who stand "proudly" by the terms "warmonger" or "killing machine" to refer to their service. Like much in-group banter, such words might, infrequently, be used jokingly. But never literally, or "proudly" as you claim, and NEVER if used by someone without a fucking clue what service involves. Do NOT use these words to describe people now or once in the military. 


12/15/19 02:39 PM #10129    

 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Trust me, Jack. You may not like it, but there are marines I've known personally who understand exactly what Trump meant & appreciate his referencing the sheer guts it takes to kill when absolutely necessary. Perhaps "American Sniper" offended you? 
Okay, shifting away from bashing everybody, anybody want to talk about Pelosi & the Democratic party's dilemma of pushing a completely partisan impeachment vote?  Failure to rally round any particular candidate? IG Horowitz's report revealing grotesque misdeeds by our FBI? Anybody glad that their president scored by closing the first (agricultural) phase of our China trade deal? USMCA? Am amazing 266,000 jobs report for November? More record gains for the Dow? Anybody care? 
 


12/15/19 02:52 PM #10130    

 

Glen Hirose

Image result for a slice of black forest cake Image result for lemon meringue pieImage result for strawberry shortcake


12/15/19 03:39 PM #10131    

 

Jack Mallory

So, Nora, you have no, none, zero, zip, nothing in the form of evidence that either serving military or veterans stand proudly by the specific designations "warmonger" or "killing machine" as you claimed. As I thought. I know a fair number of vets, from WWII, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan, with a wide range of politics. I know no one who would proudly claim the title "warmonger" or "killing machine" to characterize their service. 

How would Trump have the slightest clue whether or not or what kind of guts it takes to kill when absolutely necessary? Why would anyone look to him as a valid reference for information on military service? Ask your Marine (suggest you capitalize, crayon eaters can get touchy about that) friends if they appreciate being described as automatons who kill without thought or emotion.

Read the Voss book, or Shay, for some perspective on the years or decades of unbidden thoughts and emotions that result from killing and seeing killing in combat. Let me know, after reading, whether you think warmonger and killing machine are accurate and fair ways of describing those we send to war. 


12/15/19 05:13 PM #10132    

 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Of course I would not call a combat veteran anything like that but (1) you are putting assumptions into those labels claiming they are deemed dispicable to anyone & everyone who has known combat and (2) putting only an across the board negative spin on a term that was taken out of context. Matter of fact, Trump was asserting that our nation expects combat military to kill & then the nation expects them not to make dire mistakes at times. Should the mistake made be punished by 20 years in prison? He thought not. Agree or not, that was the way many interpreted his references & the way Trump was taken out of context. You, however, and perhaps rightly so, are offended. Leftists have been calling both Bushes, McCain, Netanyahu  Reagan etal. 'warmongers' for years. Get over it. 
 


12/15/19 06:15 PM #10133    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Nori, you are applauding and excusing Trump again as if he understands war and killing in war, when he pardoned three war criminals. Unarmed people were shot on bicycles and a teenager in custody was shot dead, etc. That is not something to reward Nori. Do you agree?  As Ive said many times Trump is counting on having people like you to defend him against all odds.You and many others are the base. ..to many of us, he is not acting in a way that is Democratic but instead autocratic. As for labeling of war veterans, I think Jack knows best about that as he was a war veteran and can speak to that. Love, JOanie


12/15/19 06:27 PM #10134    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Nori, here is what the war criminals did...regarding my previous post, I meant that an order was given to shoot unarmed people on motorcycles. Love, Joanie

Trump only lilkes loyalists who revere him and look the other way when he does corrupt things. If the Republicans don't follow his wishes, he will attack them and they could be in danger of losing their primary and that is more important to them then standing up for what is right. Love, Joanie

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-issues-pardons-service-members-accused-war-crimes/story?id=67055490


12/15/19 06:37 PM #10135    

 

Jack Mallory

I'm mainly offended by bullshit claims, Nora. Lots of verbiage, but not a bit of evidence backing up your claims that there are soldiers or veterans who take pride in being characterized as, your words, "warmongers" and/or "killing machines." If that's not what you meant to say, feel free to retract or change your words. Otherwise, spare us the yabbut wad-about red herrings.  

How 
"both Bushes, McCain, Netanyahu etal" got into this I have no idea. 

 

 

 


12/15/19 06:40 PM #10136    

 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Personally, I'm partial to the chocolate, Glen. 

I don't remember posting that anyone "took pride in being called" those names, Jack. I indicated that some understood what the president meant before his terminology was taken out of context. "We train our boys to be killing machines, then prosecute them when they kill." I get it. Others get it. You don't. 
Peace, bro. 


 

 


12/15/19 07:57 PM #10137    

 

Glen Hirose

Related imageRelated image


12/15/19 08:04 PM #10138    

 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Glen, STOP!!!! (Is that a photo of the hot fudge ice cream cake at the Hot Shoppe?)

Gifford's banana split? 
oh, mama 


12/15/19 08:11 PM #10139    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

The hot fudge sundae looks wonderful and does remind me of the Bethesda Hot Shoppes ones...

on the question of the military trained as killing machines, that is not accurate. They are trained to uphold a code of conduct too regarding people captured or unarmed, etc. Here is an editorial that specifially references Trumps comments about killing machines. Love, Joanie

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/11/25/1901760/-Trump-the-Navy-SEAL-and-a-crisis-of-conscience


12/15/19 08:15 PM #10140    

 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

He was not stating it as fact, Joanie. He was explaining a decision he made regarding his pardon of Goldsteyn. 
 


12/15/19 08:24 PM #10141    

 

Jack Mallory

"I don't remember posting that anyone "took pride in being called" those names . . ."

"As for labels, whether our military men & women are referred to as our "fighting forces", "war mongers" or "killing machines" they are not monolithic & should not be referred to as any one thing. Where some may  be insulted by terms, others stand by them proudly"

OK, I get it, I guess. You really DON'T know of any military men and women who stand proudly by the terms "war mongers" or "killing machines." I didn't think so, that's why I asked.
 

********

Glen, check out the New Yorker's Holiday Gift Guide for Foodies: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-gastronomy/holiday-gift-guide-for-foodies-from-murderous-mermaid-salt-to-lamps-made-out-of-croissants

See especially my favorites, the lamps made from real, shellacked, hollowed out baguettes, and the Arctic Circle sea salt:


 

**********
Trump's tweet:

“We train our boys to be killing machines, then prosecute them when they kill!” 
 

Of course he's stating this as a fact, supporting his decision to intervene. A false fact, mistake, lie, depending on his knowledge and motivations. I can't speak to his motivations, although one suspects they were to appeal to voters. But I will say that the Commander in Chief SHOULD know how his troops are trained, and SHOULD know, or ask, whether they are trained to be killing machines, as he asserts. 
 


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