Message Forum - GENERAL

Glen, what you may save in prep time, you may make up for in after effects! 👊😉<>>

Joanie, you still don’t get it. Did you happen to see the audience reaction to the “body slam” joke? It says it all. He’s a showboat & they can’t get enough. That’s ALL it is. Has Trump implied that what happened to Khashoggi should happen to anybody? No. Fortunately for the right, much of the population agrees that the MSM, including The Press, is worthy of derision. Certainly derision from the media’s main target: Trump! Otherwise, his rhetoric would bomb. Nobody is saying get rid of the media. But that doesn’t mean we can’t malign them for their obvious bias.

Interestingly, Khashoggi was fairly supportive of the changes the young Prince espoused. His criticism of his country’s unwillingness to bend on basic freedoms of expression (media & otherwise) & K’s constant reminders of many, many political prisoners jailed & killed, could not be tolerated. Saudi, as well as other Muslim nations have a long way to go. In a knee-jerk reaction, our cutting ties does not help them progress civilly, however. Doesn’t help protect Israel. Our allies. Our interests. And not just economically. Does one life brutally taken justify leaving Israel unprotected from a stronger, better armed Iran, backed by a stronger, better armed Russia? You may have the answers, Jack, but I KNOW I don’t.

Hmm, wonder who’s organizing & paying for food, porta-potties & care of 4000 migrants coming up from Honduras? Anybody know?

10/19/18 02:55 PM

#6975

Jay Shackford

Death the Saudi way. It’s important to learn the gruesome details of Jamal Khashoggi’s murder in the Saudi consulate. According to Turkish sources, the bone-saw welding doctor first immobilized Khashoggi with an injection that left him conscious but paralyzed. He then systematically started sawing away — one limb after the other while Khashoggi watched in horror and excruciating pain until he passed out. His screams could be heard throughout the consulate. At one point, the doctor lifted his mask and told his comrades that “he usually listened to music on jobs like this.” Then he put his earphones back on and went back to work. My guess is that the Post and other mainstream media have withheld publishing these details out of respect to Khashoggi’s family and friends.

10/19/18 03:33 PM

#6976

Dismemberment by bone saw provides a delightfully gruesome image, but is so much less efficient than dismemberment by high explosive. The MK 82 referenced above could easily dismember dozens in an instant. And because the victims are poor, and our bomb wasn't dropped in an embassy basement, the press coverage is way less intrusive.

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"Does one life brutally taken . . ."

And again, or still, thousands of dead non-combatant men, women, and children killed by the Saudis with our assistance, disappear. Is it just that it's easier to imagine our tax dollars being spent to support a regime that kills an individual, rather than confronting the deaths of thousands killed with our tax dollars?

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Whose paying for food, porta-potties, and care for the Honduras refugee caravan--any evidence anybody is? People often take every lempira with them when they immigrate. Many Hondurans live on less than $2/day--scarcely buys a cappucino, and nowhere close to an hour on a tennis court (https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Honduras). But that's what they pay with.

Porta-potties? They don't need porta-potties. They just tell the limo driver to stop at the next 3-star restaurant--they're realistic, they know there aren't a lot of 4-star restaurant on the rural roads in Honduras, Mexico, and Guatemala. I remember one of my immigrant students telling me how hard it was to get a good Duck a l'Orange on his way to the US.

In fact, they eat what they can; local folks sometimes provide a little food; often the poor are far more generous than the rich. Care? If you mean medical care, it's the same care they got in the village back home. Next to free, because it's next to non-existant. Here's a pic of the typical medical care offered to an immigrant in the caravan https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/migrants-break-through-fence-at-guatemala-border-1.4140908:

Porta-potties. You gotta be shitting me.

10/19/18 03:59 PM

#6977

Boy, you guys are privy to some real inside information: I never even realized the proof was submitted by the Turks yet. Where did you get that, Jay? And, Jack, that’s quite a feat for 4000 people to organize a caravan & cross half a continent without help. Oh, & to arrive just before Election Day, too! Amazing. I certainly stand corrected! Please tell us more!

(I laughed thinking about your literal interpretation & imagining a gazillion outhouses lined up twixt here & Honduras, Jack. You’re a hoot!)

10/19/18 04:58 PM

#6978

“Jack, that’s quite a feat for 4000 people to organize a caravan & cross half a continent without help. Oh, & to arrive just before Election Day, too! Amazing. I certainly stand corrected! Please tell us more! “

Can’t tell you any more, Nora. I tried hard to find ANY evidence that anyone is organizing, paying for, or helping these folks other than themselves, but could find nothing. Immigrants have gotten themselves to the US for hundreds of years without some nefarious plot by the Democratic Party. What have you got, yourself, other than speculation?

You suggested the porta-potties. Can't imagine where you got that fantasy! In the village in Mexico where I worked in the late 70s and early 80s folks crapped in the woods and the pigs disposed of it.

10/19/18 06:30 PM

#6979

Guess it must be that “October surprise syndrome”, which is paranoia that has a way of rearing it’s ugly head right before one gets the urge to vote. Has something to do with the timing of events. Crazy, isn’t it? Yeah, right. I guess the left’s skewering of Judge K had nothing to do with the mid/term either.

Guess, too, about migrants migrating: I should know better than to allude to something a little more lighthearted than “where do they take a dump?” Jeez. Lighten up, people. Tonight’s TV hook was “Rosie O’Donnell Wants Military To Attack Trump”. Turns out she was MAKING A JOKE. What a concept. Does humor have no place anymore? If so, lemme outta here.

Go Caps!

10/19/18 06:53 PM

#6980

I don't find Trump talking of slamming a reporter to the ground as amusing. If the crowd laughed that is pretty bad and also, I don't think the law enforcement thought what happened was so funny as he got charged in that case. Love, Joanie

10/19/18 06:57 PM

#6981

Oh and yes, its good that Saudi Arabia is a check on Iran but that does not justify letting them get off scott free on killing a journalist in cold blood...and as Jack said what about the massacres of so many in Yemen using our weaponry. There are ways to let them know that aid will be curtailed if they do not

change their barbaric ways. There are sanctions and other ways to push back. Love, Joanie

10/19/18 07:05 PM

#6982

Here is some more about this case. I don't think Trump's referencing it is a joke and I don't think its less horrible because the audience liked his remarks. Love, Joanie

In the case of Gianforte, witnesses including members of a Fox News crew say Gianforte became enraged over what he perceived as biased coverage before body-slamming Jacobs, throwing him to the ground and punching him.

Gianforte initially misled investigators about what had happened, falsely claiming that Jacobs had grabbed him by the wrist and pulled both of them to the floor, according to documents released under a court order following requests from news agencies.

Trump said he was in Rome with other world leaders when he heard about what had happened.

"And I said, 'Oh, this is terrible. He's going to lose the election,'" Trump recalled. "And then I said, 'Well, wait a minute. I know Montana pretty well. I think it might help him.' And it did."

Gianforte pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor assault charge in June 2017 and said in an apology letter that he alone was responsible for the attack. He paid a $385 fine and completed 40 hours of community service and 20 hours of anger management counseling. He also donated $50,000 to the Committee to Protect Journalists.

10/19/18 07:23 PM

#6983

My migrant students told me how, even in the face of a level of poverty and violence very few of us have ever experienced, their moms and dads ALWAYS planned their immigration timelines strictly around US elections. Sometimes they'd go jobless, hungry, exposed to gang violence and civil war for months, even years, before immigrating, until the next election cycle rolled around.

Effing ridiculous.

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Awhile back Joan posted about votefwd.org, a campaign to encourage everyone to vote. I just finished my first 25 letters. Votefwd provides the letter form on-line, and supplies lists of potential voters, with addresses.

The votefwd volunteer prints the letters out, writes the salutation, finishes the “I have pledged to vote . . .” section in a brief, personal, and non-partisan way that would encourage others to vote, and does the envelope stuffing, addressing, stamping, and mailing—timed to arrive just before the election. You supply the paper, envelopes, stamps, time and effort. A small price for old retired farts to pay to promote democracy.

This is the blank letter. Blacked out section has addressee's name and address.

10/19/18 08:51 PM

#6984

Spare the lecture. Stranger things have happened. I’ll grant you that it might be the Russians. After they’ve seen our entire country held captive by a teenage drinking party, it’s certainly not hard for anybody to see how easy it is to meddle in our elections. I may be paranoid, but you might feel a bit naive when Nov. 5th’s biggest story line includes wailing mothers & babies at the border. More political pawns. Sad.

Another tell-tale pre election hysteria issue is pretending it’s surprising that the Saudis would kill a journalist. How odd for a medieval, radical theocracy. Not. But sure plays well against Trump. Glad Khashoggi can’t see his death exploited & used as a political football, too. But, hey, anything goes!

Jay, can you tell me your source, please, for the horrible description of Khashoggi’s death? Still having trouble finding a reputable report. Pompeo insists he’s seen no video & heard no recording.

Glen, sad to see them have to yank Holtby but, at least they’ve tied it at 4-4. Hope Copley can redeem himself. 🙏

10/19/18 10:13 PM

#6985

I think Khashoggi would be happy that there is a big stink made about his execution rather then that this atrocity is described as making him a potical football as was said. From what I have heard Republicans and Democrats are very upset about this so what is the political football element?. I think that the execution is about the execution and not making Trump look bad. Trump looks bad on his own by his own lack of integrrity and his own lack of standing up for America. Love, Joanie

10/20/18 07:24 AM

#6986

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/19/world/middleeast/jamal-khashoggi-dead-saudi-arabia.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share

Move along folks, nothing to see here. Just an accident. A little confusion. Guy tells his girlfriend that if he's not out in a couple of hours, call the cops, then walks into his consulate to pick up their marriage papers. There, of course, he attacks a dozen or more security professionals. They accidentally strangle him to death during a fistfight .

But these bodyguards, other intel types and consulate staff were confused, couldn’t recognize dead and mistakenly saw him leave the building. “Sorry, we don’t know where he is!” Weeks later, they realize he never left the building, he's been dead ever since they killed him. And, oops, they’ve mistakenly lost his body, don't know where it went.

Got that, folks? Now keep moving, clear the sidewalks, don't obstruct the arms sales, nothing to see.

Source? The NYT, proven to be far more reliable than the administration or the Saudis.

I think Trump and the Trumpublicans have given the impression that you can tell people bald-faced, unsupported lies and many will accept them eagerly. But as Joanie points out, there are some from both parties who aren’t buying this cockamamie story.

10/20/18 07:44 AM

#6987

No, & don’t think for a moment that I buy it either. But, from Jay’s description of the torture, I thought the actual proof of method had been revealed. In earlier times, issues such as these would be taken care of between heads of states & behind closed doors. Today the world knows everything & opinions fly before stories are vetted, making every player a political football. I also think Khashoggi would want his death to help bring something good to the people of Saudi Arabia.

Glen, good game. Losing sucks but at least we got a point out of it.

10/20/18 08:54 AM

#6988

Waiting for the suggestion from the right that Khashoggi was actually killed by a rogue caravan of Honduran immigrants. Protects those billions in arms sales, provides yet another chance to denigrate immigrants—a win-win!

10/20/18 09:06 AM

#6989

Kashogghi's last post was about freedom of the press. I think he would like it if people like himself would be safer to say what they want, and to even criticize if they deem it necessary. It was his criticisms of the Prince that cuased him to be killed. He was for human rights and the free press among other things. I think too he would want the truth to come out about his murder. So, I agree with Nori that he would want something positive to come of his own death. Love, Joanie I think too if he could he would want to give his fiancee one more hug.

10/20/18 10:48 AM

#6990

Wow, that’s a tad bitter, Jack.

Like your thinking on this one, Joanie.

If truth is told, I have no problem with it. Today, that’s a big IF. I hope Trump does work with Congress to do something meaningful, I’m just not sure if losing 67000 jobs & a boatload of money, is the right thing to do, in principle or practicality. IMHO, at the least, MbS should abdicate his thrown. But what will Pompeo recommend? If you get that word first, Jay, share pronto! 👊😉

Apparently Mexico is working to sort out illegals from potentially qualified refugees before they make it to US territory. Does anybody like that? Hmm, I just may book a Mexican cruise this year. 🛳

10/20/18 10:48 AM

#6991

Glen Hirose

Nori,

I think the Caps have yet to feel the same “Vibe” with Reirden as they did with Trotz; after all he led them through the Playoffs to the Stanley Cup. Fortunately for Reirden the Caps are a”Seen that done that” veteran team. Give them a bit more time, and they will show off their “Big Boy Skates” again.

Uh-oh, did I post the Nacho Supremes prematurely? Maybe it will be…

Image result for milwaukee's best on ice

10/20/18 12:18 PM

#6992

Jay Shackford

Well, the Saudis finally conceded what the Turks have been reporting for the past 17 days — Jamal Khashoggi was killed in the Saudi consulate in Turkey. True to form, Old Bone Spurs has been all over the ballpark on this one:

On Oct. 8, five days after Khashoggi walked into the consulate and after the Turkish President demanded that the Saudis prove he left the consulate alive, the President said that “we have seen conflicting reports.”
On Oct. 11 the President said, “Well, it’s not our country. It’s Turkey, and it’s not a citizen.” Later that day on Fox and Friends, he said, “ We can’t let it happen. And we’re being very, very tough…He went in and it doesn’t look like he came out.”
Later on Oct. 11 when asked about possible sanctions, the President responded: “I know they’re talking about different type of sanctions, but they’re spending $110 billion on military equipment …That doesn’t help us — not when it comes to jobs and not when it comes to our companies losing out on work…Again, this took place in Turkey, and to the best of our knowledge, Kashoggi is not a United States citizen — is that right?”
On Oct. 15 after Turkish investigators searched the Saudi consulate: “I just spoke with the king of Saudi Arabia, who denies any knowledge of what took place with regard to, as he said, his Saudi Arabian citizen. I don’t want to get into his mind — but it sounded to me like maybe these could have been rogue killers. Who knows? …And it sounded like he, and also the crown prince, had no knowledge.”
On Oct. 16 after Secretary of State Mike Pompeo met with and had a photo op with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, the President told Pompeo privately, “Mike, wipe that shit-eating grin off your face.” Publicly, the President said: “Here we go again with, you know, you’re guilty until proven innocent. We just went through that with Justice Kavanaugh and he was innocent all the way as far as I‘m concerned.”
Later on Oct. 16, on Twitter, the President said: “For the record, I have no financial interests in Saudi Arabia (or Russia for that matter). Any suggestion that I have is just more FAKE NEWS (of which there is plenty)!”
On Pompeo’s trip home when asked whether the Saudis had said whether Khashoggi was dead or alive, he said: “I don’t want to talk about any of the facts; they didn’t either.” Later on the trip, Pompeo asked to expand and clarify his earlier statement: “I want to make one thing very clear: Reports of body-slamming are totally false. That happened in Montana a year and a half ago.”

We all know the rest of the story. On Sept. 19, the Saudis conceded that Khashoggi was involved in a physical alteration at the consulate, which resulted in his death … that 18 Saudis were being detained for questioning…. and that a full-fledged investigation was underway.

Today, the President was reportedly saying that he believes the Saudi statement is “credible.”

10/20/18 02:56 PM

#6993

Robert Hall

"Elect a clown, expect a circus"--Bumper sticker I saw today.

10/20/18 03:25 PM

#6994

Jeez, Nora, lighten up! Just adding more lightheartedness about immigrants, like you. You were kidding about immigrant political pawns, right? Like, nobody any less crazy than Alex Jones would think there's some ominous conspiracy (led by the Democrats, one assumes) that's pulling puppet strings behind 4000 or so desparate people. Secret maneuvers by some hidden chess player, to mix metaphors, that gets these folks to leave their homes, friends, family and set out on a long and dangerous journey? Sort of immigrant Stepford Wives, blindly under the control of who-knows-who? No understanding of their own lives, no agency on their part, just being moved from point A to point B with no thoughts or volition of their own?

The hundreds of immigrants I've known have made their choices consciously and as rationally as anyone could in tough situations. No one tricked, fooled, or manipulated them into immigrating. They made the best decisions they could in the circumstances they faced. Like all of us, regardless of race, ethnicity or income.

Pawns. Yeah, you were kidding.

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Nice time line Jay, Thanks. Sure, a 60 year old guy just started swinging on a dozen young security guards. He must have been tough if they had to strangle him to subdue him. Good thing they brought those big suitcases . . .

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Still got some color here. Mark and Tasca head down the hill behind the farmhouse.

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Robert--unfortunately, they are our monkeys, it is our circus.

10/20/18 03:34 PM

#6995

Wish I could care about Trump’s every word as much as you do, Jay. When you know what’s behind Pompeo’s “shit eating grin”, let us know. That part is fascinating.

Glen, couldn’t agree more. Hope there are still enough “big boy skates” to make the playoffs, but if not, so be it. Meanwhile, what a pretty red banner that is!

Got a kick out of the head honcho in Honduras saying his far left wing opposition put together the caravan to embarass him. Looks like everybody has a dog in this fight.

Sign me ‘still seeking truth!’

10/20/18 05:24 PM

#6996

Speaking of lightening up, get this: supposedly Elizabeth Warren put out a cookbook a couple of years ago called “Pow Wow Chow”, touted to contain recipes from 5 different tribes. Two of the recipes she apparently plagiarized, lifting them from a NYT home section! Now, THAT’S funny! 🤪

10/20/18 06:14 PM

#6997