Message Forum - GENERAL

Even with compelling evidence, Trump seems to be defending the Saudi version of the brutal killing of the journalist (who was a US resident) killed in the consulate saying the Saudi's like Kavanaugh, are innocent until proven guilty.. He appears to be giving the benefit of the doubt even though the Turks have dribbled out strong evidence of the murder plot and they have the audio tape. It sadly looks like the Saudi's thought they could get away with this from a President who calls the press, "the enemy of the people." Love, Joanie

10/17/18 08:25 PM

#6952

No one said anything about justification, Jack. If you can’t see the importance of trying to build alliances in barbaric, third world areas of the world, in order to protect & promote our own country & those of our allies, perhaps I should ask simply, what should or would YOU do? The first, I would hope, would be to find out exactly what did, in fact, happen, keeping in mind that Turkey cannot be trusted either. Sanctions may be applied. Pressure may be applied for the Royal Family to change MbS for another successor. World pressures will , no doubt, be applied diplomatically & economically. It is too soon to tell what will transpire. I try not to second guess Mr. Trump, but for now, I hope he treads slowly & very carefully. Footnote: a plus is having Pompeo’s presence. As ex-CIA director, he is indispensable.

Sadly, I see (listening to Jonathan Turley -the great Constitutional attorney), that 1500 students & staff from Sen. Susan Collins’ alma mater, St. Lawrence U., have issued a letter, urging the university to rescind her honorary degree, (a move, btw, which has never been made in the school’s history). Why? Because of her Kavanaugh vote. To me, it is a sad day when grown-ups judge or hurt others solely due to differing viewpoints. Great lesson for their student body: disagree & you will pay! They claim her “apologetic” vote does not address our “rape culture”. Um, last I heard: he did NOT rape her! Oy.

GO CAPS!!

10/17/18 09:16 PM

#6953

Nora, my comments have been directed at the responsibility of the Saudis, and the US as their allies and providers of the means of destruction, in the deaths of thousands of Yemeni non-combatants.

When innocents die, especially when our weapons do the killing, I would hope that all of us would be raising questions about justifications.

10/17/18 10:11 PM

#6954

Glen, GREAT game tonight! Can you believe Ovie’s goals? Pumped!!

Jack, yes. No justification. So, is there no justification for trying to warm alliances with countries who behave this way? Should we pretend they don’t exist? Make demands before sitting down at a table with them? Or is it just the money & jobs that $400B provides us that rankles you? If we cut ties, our enemies fill the vacuum & then it is much more likely those weapons ARE used on us. No? Assuming, the head honcho DID orchestrate this massacre, what choice would you make?

10/18/18 06:09 AM

#6955

https://theintercept.com/2016/10/10/photos-show-fragments-of-u-s-bombs-at-site-of-yemen-funeral-masssacre/

“what choice would you make? “

Stop providing the aircraft, bombs, rockets, refueling, spare parts, or anything else that facilitates the killing of innocents.

As I asked earlier, do we have the right to contribute to the deaths of thousands of uninvolved civilians in order to, hypothetically, protect ourselves? Or, perhaps more accurately, in order to protect “money and jobs” in the arms industry? My answer is no. If your answer is yes, our differences are clear.

Describing the scene at a funeral in Yemen: “The aircraft struck the hall four times, killing more than 140 people and wounding 525. One local health official described the aftermath as “a lake of blood.”

“The MK-82 is a 500-pound explosive weapon manufactured in the United States. The code “96214” indicates that the bomb was produced by Raytheon, the third-largest defense contractor in the United States.”

10/18/18 08:59 AM

#6956

I have heard that the Saudi's need us more then we need them and that we get most of our oil from Canada and that they, the Saudi's need the US planes, etc. (it would take too long for them to just switch over to others as Trump says) ... so we should be calling them out big time for what they are doing with our weapons to the innocents getting bombed to oblivian and what they did to that journalist. We should be calling them out and showing them that there are consequences of their attrocities, Even if we took loses in this, there is a moral imperative to take a stand and impose sanctions or whatever else would be effective. They have to learn the lesson that crime doesn't pay. Love, Joanie

10/18/18 10:57 AM

#6957

Glen Hirose

The Caps finally stopped the skid; albeit in OT, but it's a turnaround none the less. I'd feel a bit better if I saw Wilson on his skates again...

As much as it would have been interesting to see the Brewers and Astros in the Series I will still watch the Sox and the Dodgers if that is what the Baseball Gods* want...

World Series Food Item #1

Image result for super nachos

*If you are a Astos fan you may need some form of sacrifice to appease the Baseball Gods.

10/18/18 11:31 AM

#6958

Morality before money, Joanie? This is why you've never been in high places in government.

Trump's attitudes towards the Crown Prince remind me of the remark attributed to FDR about the Nicaraguan dictator Somoza, and much of the rest of our foreign policy throughout our lifetime. As described in a letter to the editor in the WaPo last year,

"The soundtrack of our foreign policy for a century has been: 'He may be a son of a bitch, but he’s our son of a bitch.' Among others, think of Nicaragua’s Anastasio Somoza Debayle, Cuba’s Fulgencio Batista, Chile’s Augusto Pinochet, the Philippines’ Ferdinand Marcos, South Korea’s Syngman Rhee, China’s Chiang Kai-shek, Indonesia’s Suharto, Iran’s Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, Iraq’s Saddam Hussein (in warring against Iran) and Zaire’s Mobutu Sese Seko. We support Saudi Arabia despite its misogyny, bigotry and tyranny because it spends staggering sums on American weapons and produces more than 10 million barrels of oil per day." https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/embracing-dictators-is-nothing-new/2017/05/04/d1a18aac-3028-11e7-a335-fa0ae1940305_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.aa3188626800

We support some of the most brutal autocrats in the world because we think it will enhance our security, and because we know it will increase our profits. And because we allied with murderous dictators in the past, some people think that's an excuse to do the same today. And we call other folks "barbaric." Go figger.

10/18/18 12:17 PM

#6959

Yes. In a perfect world. If only it were that easy - Saudi Arabia is an incredibly complicated alliance. I say we have leverage & the Saudis are in trouble. How do we know this isn’t a great opportunity? The stakes, before this is over, may include much better human rights than just allowing women to drive. Going to be interesting. For now, seems like everybody’s dancin’ with the devil: Kim Jong has asked the Pope to visit NoKo! Sweet fancy Moses!

Glen, what IS that?

Interesting home remedy: skip commercial bug sprays & prepare a pump spray of 1 part salt & 3 parts water. Shake & shoot! All gone! 🐜

10/18/18 12:19 PM

#6960

Good points Jack...and as for FDR, he refused to allow that ship of Jews in during WWII and they were forced to turn around to their deaths. Here we have people from Latina countries trying to find assylum here fleeing gang violence, etc. and they are not allowed entry. Also Trump's comments since the reporter's murder in effect defending the Saudi's have been appalling. Love, Joanie

10/18/18 03:55 PM

#6961

We’ve been allied with the Saudis since 1932. Jamal Khashoggi’s writings about the failure of his countrymen to gain freedoms as basic as ‘speech’, etal., coupled with his dashed hopes that Muslim nations would be raised up by the “Arab spring” movement, give real reason behind his slaying. It is hard to believe he lived as long as he did, when one considers his homeland’s routine practice of the public beheading & crucifixion of Atheists & homosexuals. Btw, murder only gets you life in prison. The West is appalled while Turkey is delighted. Footnote: apparently one of the hit men sighted at the consulate has died in a mysterious car crash. Hollywood must be chomping at the bit.

Thousands of organized Hondurans, most with children, headed to our southern border right before an election? No surprise here!

10/18/18 04:30 PM

#6962

https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/risky-business-role-arms-sales-us-foreign-policy#full

Nora—we only have the leverage we're willing to employ. You have contacted Trump and your Congressionals and urged them to embargo the sale of weapons, munitions, and spare parts to the Saudis, right? Trump's repeated concerns with the potential of lost sales suggests that he might prioritize his response, if any, based on financial interests rather than human rights concerns.

Here is an extremely detailed analysis of the dangers of arms sales to foreign countries, from the reliably right wing Cato Institute. Saudi Arabia falls into their Very Risky category, based on its potential instability, high level of risk to its citizens, and risk to neighboring countries. Written before the Khashoggi debacle, which is completely irrelevant to this issue.

10/18/18 04:43 PM

#6963

Cato Institute conclusions (edited for brevity):

Issue an Updated Presidential Policy Directive on Arms Sales — Most importantly, the president should issue a new Presidential Policy Directive reorienting U.S. arms sales policy so that the new default policy is “no sale.” The only circumstances in which the United States should sell or transfer arms to another country are when three conditions are met: (1) there is a direct threat to American national security; (2) there is no other way to confront that threat other than arming another country; and (3) the United States is the only potential supplier of the necessary weapons.
Immediately Stop Selling Weapons to Risky Nations — The first step in implementing a new approach should be to stop selling weapons to the countries most likely to misuse weapons or to lose control of them. Based on the risk assessment described here, we recommend that the United States immediately halt the sale of weapons to any nation that scored in the “highest risk” category for any risk factor, or which is actively engaged in conflict.
Improve and Respond to End-Use Monitoring — The United States should significantly expand its tracking of the use and misuse of American weapons. The current system of end-use monitoring does not collect enough data on how weapons are used once they are transferred.
Amend the AECA to Require Congressional Approval for All Arms Sales — Finally, we recommend that the AECA be amended to require congressional approval for all arms sales.

Contact Congressionals and POTUS now!

10/18/18 05:26 PM

#6964

Glen Hirose

Nachos Supreme Nori, and the next things on the menu are:

Image result for pigs in a blanket Image result for deviled eggs with bacon

10/18/18 05:49 PM

#6965

Jack, I share your mom’s dismay with the ways of this strange new world when I see Keira Knightly disallowing her children Disney flicks because when Snow White or Sleeping Beauty are awakened by a prince’s kiss, it is a kiss delivered without permission. Pass me some o’ that nacho stuff! I freakin’ give up. 🙄

10/18/18 06:29 PM

#6966

I agree, Nora, there would seem to be more important issues than Snow White's politics. Are you contacting your Congressionals and Trump?

10/18/18 07:44 PM

#6967

Why would you single me out, Jack? I’m only one phone call. Work on the Jays!

Seriously, unlike you, I wouldn’t want to interfere with whatever Pompeo decides. He has a whole helluva lot more information & smarts than I.

Glen, I hope that Astros fan has changed his name, or he may be listed as a missing person. Gotta say the NY decision-makers are better off unnamed, as well. Can you believe that call?

Anybody seen “Gosnell” yet? I have a bet there isn’t one Jay who will see it. 😎

10/18/18 08:19 PM

#6968

“He has a whole helluva lot more information & smarts than I. “

If I’ve learned nothing more than this since I started to become socially and politically conscious, it has been NEVER to blindly turn the future over to the government.

The information they offer may be incorrect or outright lies, and there is NO reason to think they are any smarter than the rest of us. Both have been demonstrated multiple times during our lives. Vietnam, Watergate, Iraq, and Trump make my case.

10/18/18 08:43 PM

#6969

Yes. And there have been many important decisions made which have been correct. I am cautiously optimistic. And I watch & wait to see what information unfolds & then what decision arises from our leaders. I don’t pretend to know more than those who are well qualified & I happen to think Pompeo is the right guy, until I find reason to think he’s the wrong guy. Like Susan Collins said, “when passions are most inflamed, fairness is most in jeopardy”. I extend that to “good decisions are most in jeopardy”. Are passions inflamed? I’m thinking YES!

10/19/18 09:33 AM

#6970

This is not what a President of the United States should be saying. Trump is not fit to be President.

President Trump praised Rep. Greg Gianforte (R-Montana) as “my kind of guy” for body slamming a reporter who was trying to ask him a question on the eve of a special election last year.

Trump was speaking at a rally in Missoula, Mont., where the president was campaigning for Gianforte and Matt Rosendale, a Republican challenger to Sen. Jon Tester (D-Montana).

“Greg is smart. By the way, never wrestle him. Any guy who can do a body slam, he’s my kind of guy,” Trump said, to cheers from the crowd.

“I shouldn’t say that. There’s nothing to be embarrassed about,” Trump said to Gianforte.

Gianforte plead guilty to a charge of misdemeanor assault of Ben Jacobs, political reporter for The Guardian, as he covered a Montana special election in May 2017. Even though the incident drew considerable attention, Gianforte defeated his Democratic opponent the next day.

Trump recalled that he was in Rome at the time of the incident, and he shared his initial thoughts: “This was terrible. He’s going to lose the election.”

“Then I said, ‘Well wait a minute. I know Montana pretty well. I think it might help him, and it did.'”

Trump made the comments in a speech that otherwise attacked Democrats for “mob” rule, and characterized himself as the candidate of “law and order.”

It also came amid international furor over the disappearance of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, last seen entering the Saudi consulate in Turkey earlier this month. Turkish authorities say that he was murdered in the consulate, and his apparent grisly killing has turned attention to the U.S. relationship to the regime of Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

Katherine Viner, editor in chief of Guardian News and Media, wrote on Twitter that Trump’s remarks were “shocking and chilling, especially in light of the disappearance of journalist Jamal Khashoggi.”

CREDIT: AP

10/19/18 10:17 AM

#6971

Joanie—Khashoggi's last article was published in the WaPo yesterday. It decries the lack of free expression in the Arab world, and notes that the failure of the international community to support a free press is partially to blame. He is, of course, describing just what got him killed.

He doesn’t mention Trump's attacks on a free press specifically (would an immigrant working for one of Trump's primary media targets feel safe doing that?), but I will. Smearing journalists as “enemies of the people” and, now, encouraging violence has expectable consequence, here and in the rest of the world. Trump knows this. I don’t know if he regrets it.

The right has begun a campaign designed to smear Khashoggi by insinuating an association with terrorism and Bin Laden, so Trump will be relieved of the obligation to sanction the Saudis for murdering and dismembering him. https://apple.news/AgDrozM_gRkWYoK_NI13pWw

10/19/18 10:32 AM

#6972

Yes, Jack, these attacks on the free press contribute to the feeling in other countries like Saudi Arabia that there may not be much push back if a journalist is targeted. Trump was just in Missouri saying that the candidate there slamming a reporter, is "my kind of guy." Love, Joanie

10/19/18 11:23 AM

#6973

Glen Hirose

Well there goes my Astros vs. Brewers Series; Nori, bad calls and all I still have to admit Price threw a 6 inning master piece. So in his honor I've added this to the menu:

Related image

The prep on this one is surprisingly simple...

10/19/18 12:04 PM

#6974