The message forum is an ongoing dialogue between classmates. There are no items, topics, subtopics, etc.

Forums work when people participate - so don't be bashful! Click the "Post Message" button to add your entry to the forum.

Jack Mallory

Hard to see the placement of this missile strike as anything but intentional, right on top of the World Central Kitchen logo and after their travel had been coordinated with the IDF. 

I'm conflicted by my response to this. Why should I find this any more brutal than the daily attacks on innocent Gazans? But I'm having more and more trouble imagining casting a vote for the man most directly responsible for enabling this with my, and your, tax dollars. Yes, I'm aware of the alternative. But . . . 

https://www.npr.org/2024/04/01/1242177519/world-central-kitchen-workers-deaths-gaza

Netanyahu admits "unintionally hitting innocent people," according to the BBC. Unntentionally? Certainly very accurately.  Perhaps my reaction is due to the deaths of 7 innocent volunteers from around the world, trying to bring some humanity to an inhumane situation. 


 

Jay Shackford

Jack:  It's hard to believe that Benjamin Netanyahu is that stupid.  To take out relief workers with the World Central Kitchen who are feeding starving children in Gaza is not the way to win worldwide support at a time when his war seems to be losing support among Americans, Europeans and others.  He's dangerous -- like Trump -- and has the single-focus of destroying Hamas regardless of the consequences but he's not an idiot.

I'm guessing that it was a tragic error that happens in the fog of war. Nonetheless, Netanyahu can and should be blamed and held accountable for the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza that has killed more than 32,000 Palestinians, the majority of them women and childen, and destroyed or damaged beyond repair 70% of the housing and most of Gaza's nfrastructure such as schools, hospitals and water and sewage treatment facilities. This is a humanitarian crisis, and, as Jack noted, the U.S. is still sending Israel bombs and other military support.  Something aint't right here.  

If I can figure out how to do it, I will post an 18-minute PBS news interview with my cardiologist, Dr. Tariq Haddad, who grew up in Gaza and had lost 100 members of his extended family when the interview was conducted about 6 weeks ago.  His wife is my pulminologist, Dr. Adlah Sukkar, who did the "Nerds for Humanity" interview on Covid in late 2020 or early 2021.  I sent you guys a link to that interview back then.  

Jack Mallory

Sorry, Jay, perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't accuse Netanyahu of pointing out the WCK convoy and ordering a pilot or whoever to hit it. But even if an "accident," accidents happen for reasons. They can be discouraged or encouraged by human decisions.

Johnson didn't "order" the massacre at My Lai; Nixon didn't "order" the bombing of the Bach Mai hospital. But they and Netanyahu, as heads of state, are responsible for creating, encouraging, or at the very least allowing to persist attitudes and policies which led to those atrocities. Israel today, and certainly the U.S. during the Vietnam war, had both formal rules of engagement and histories of allowing/ignoring attacks on innocents that make their governments responsible. 

And, as supporters and financiers of the Israeli military actions in Gaza, we as tax payers are accomplices in those actions. I'm not sure I can vote for a Commander in Chief that allows, even facilitates, the continuation of such actions. 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

I blame Hamas.

Jack Mallory

Here is a link to the article Jay referred to, both a video and transcript. I've read Dr. Haddad's account of the deaths of his family members, and the multitude of similar descriptions of the horrific civilian casualties in Gaza. These, combined with the reports (NYT, Guardian, WaPo, etc) of the deliberate, multiple, and deadly Israeli attacks on the WCK food aid volunteers leaves little doubt as to the Israeli responsibility for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/amanpour-and-company/video/he-says-100-family-members-in-gaza-have-been-killed/

To deny Israeli culpability is to deliberately close one's eyes to reality. Or, perhaps it's an understandable desire to deny one's own responsibility in a moral situation where we, as American tax payers, are funding much of the death and destruction. As we have throughout much of our generation's history. 

Jack Mallory

Helen Lambie Goldstein has asked me to post this:

Check out this ALS TDI article: What is Bulbar Onset ALS? /news/what-is-bulbar-onset-als/

 

After more than a year of hoarsness, trouble breathing and bad fatigue I was finally given a diagnosis a week ago—Bulbar Onset ALS. Not one that I welcome but must accept.

 

Please forgive me for not contacting each of you. It was been my pleasure to become friends with all of you! Take care and stay well!

https://www.healthline.com/health/bulbar-onset-als

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Jack Mallory

The Israeli military seems to disagree with Nori. Although when the same mistakes happen so frequently as to look more like policy than error, it's hard to take an investigation seriously. 
 

**********

When the news of the Israeli attack first appeared, it wasn't noted that of the seven killed, four were veterans. Several had served in Afghanistan. Not surprised. 

Jack Mallory

This time of year we're all reminded exactly how many thousands of our personal dollars are going to Uncle Sam. This article tells us that 3.3 billion of those dollars each year purchase weapons for the Israeli military.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/06/us/politics/israel-us-weapons.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&ugrp=c&pvid=29EFA005-933B-474C-B137-94B3C10DD1C3&sgrp=c-cb

Perhaps it would give us a better understanding of how our tax dollars are spent if we were informed of the specific details: "You provided one 2,000 pound bomb and three 500 pound bombs. They were used to kill 7 Hamas fighters, 4 non-combatant mothers, 3 non-combatant fathers, and 6 children below the age of 12. And 2 aid workers providing food for hungry families, 1 doctor and 2 nurses." All imaginary but completely possible statistics. 

Perhaps even greater understanding could be provided by giving us photos of those whose deaths we funded. 
 

I apologize for focusing on the Western aid workers' photos rather than those of Gazans, but the pictures of Gazan fatalities are too brutal for me to post. 
 

People can blame Hamas for the deaths if it makes them feel innocent, but we paid for them.
 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Jack Mallory

I think we are unlikely to forget the horrific elements of the Hamas attack, Joanie. But the blame lies with Hamas terrorists, not with the unarmed innocents that have been killed by the Israelis with the weapons we provide. Hamas is guilty of its actions, as are the Israelis for theirs and as we are for funding Israeli actions. Did your tax dollars, or mine, or Nori's pay for the deaths of innocent men, women, and children? It's easy to point a finger at Hamas; it's hard to acknowledge our own responsibility. 

*******

Looks like the kids weathered the storm. 

Carole Meininger (Moore)

Hi all!  
I haven't posted anything in a very long time so I apologize for jumping in on this conversation. But I am wondering if any of you listened to the podcast from The NY Times of an interview about how a woman in Israeli intelligence had warned of the initial attack, with details, by Hamas, and the higher ups ignored it.  There are so many aspects of this situation that are tragic.  Being something of an outspoken feminist I find myself wondering if she was ignored because of her gender.  
   In other news, I'm still plugging away - spending a lot of time with my Quaker Meeting, feeding cats, getting a garden going with my husband (a bit of a fanatic in this area), and occasionally visiting good ol' Bethany Beach  I enjoy your conversations and photos even if I rarely respond! 
Best, Carole (Meininger) Moore (Hoage)

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Jack Mallory

Good to hear from you, Carole. The NYT reported in November that the Israelis had been warned of the Hamas attack, with quite specific details, over a year prior. There's also been conjecture about Netanyahu's use of the attack and war to stay in power. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&ugrp=c&pvid=FC5AD6F8-3A58-4D2C-BD58-3818C056A116&sgrp=c-cb

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-01-10/israel-hamas-war-helps-netanyahu-stay-in-power

*********

Ready for the eclipse! Sunshine supposedly on the way.

Glen Hirose

Jack,

Are we sending the wrong message to hamas? Do we strengthen their resolve, weaken our image, and thereby prolong this horrible conflict? So far we've done a miserable job trying to prosecute "Our Allies' wars".

So did Prime Minister Netanyhu use the attack to stay in power? Cynicism? The same accusations were pointed at President Roosevelt before Pearl Harbor.

Jack Mallory

Glen--the message that many Gazans are getting is that the U.S. and Israel have no concern for their lives or well-being, and neither plan nor intention of coming to a peaceful, political resolution. Israel, and we, are committing the same error we've repeated since Vietnam--ignoring the politics of an insurgency, a war which is fueled by the anger and resentment of the enemy. As Vietnam should have taught us, god isn't on the side of the big battalions, he/she/they/it is/are on the side of those with fire in their belly. The American people haven't felt fire in their belly since WWII. The Vietnamese, Taliban, and Sunni insurgents did. 

Attempts to brutally suppress such an enemy only feed their recruiting and ensures continuing war. You guys sent me to the JFK Center for Special Warfare in 1967 for that lesson, with a field trip to Vietnam to reinforce the point! 

Did you read the Bloomberg article? Conjectural, as I said, cynical perhaps.But we have certainly seen wars used politically in the U.S. and elsewhere over the years. Remember Nixon's sabotage of the Paris peace talks?

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Jack Mallory

My point is not that the war in Gaza is a civil war like Vietnam, Joanie, but that it's an insurgency like Vietnam. Wikipedia gives a definition which describes Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Gaza: 

"An insurgency is a violent, armed rebellion by small, lightly armed bands who practice guerrilla warfare from primarily rural base areas against a larger authority.^[1][2][3] The key descriptive feature of insurgency is its asymmetric nature: small irregular forces face a large, well-equipped, regular military force state adversary.^[4] Due to this asymmetry, insurgents avoid large-scale direct battles, opting instead to blend in with the civilian population (mainly in the countryside) where they gradually expand territorial control and military forces.^[4] Insurgency frequently hinges on control of and collaboration with local populations.^[4][5"

Asymmetric warfare, irregular forces against conventional military, insurgents blending in with the population, the importance of control and cooperation of the population. Such a war can't be won without the support and cooperation of the population--which will only ever come with a POLITICAL settlement, some accord reached by negotiation, not bombing. The U.S. has demonstrated repeatedly the failure of victory through megatonnage. 

There will be no long-term peace in Gaza, or Palestine generally, until the political status of the Palestinians is established in a way Palestinians feel is just. Every time a child or a mother or a father is killed by a bomb or a tank shell or starvation, another fighter--or terrorist--is created. The Israeli war may be a war to stop Hamas but it is also a war killing innocent Gazan civilians. And some of the survivors of those killed will join Hamas and be motivated to continue this war. 
 

Also should point out that, along with the despicable anti-Semitism Joanie notes, Islamophobia is also on the rise in this country. I suspect this is all related to Trump's pandering to Christian nationalism and suspicion of all who are not White Anglo-Saxon Protestants. 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

That's why Biden is working towards the two state solution with a different type of Palestinian leader than the corrupt Abbas and he is also trying to facilitate a peace agreement between Saudi Arabia and Israel, just what Hamas fears. You are right too Jack that the Hamas terrorists blend into the population and I might add use the people as human shields. There will be no peace with Hamas, no political solution with them.. Their doctrine calls for the destruction of Israel. Iran is waiting around hoping Israel falls so they can attack Israel. It's a very complicated situation in the Middle East as we all know. . When Bush went in after Sadaam Hussein on the false premise of weapons of mass destruction,, and Iraq was torn up, Iran reared up and had no check anymore. Now Iran has proxies all over fighting Israel. Iran would love it if Israel is weakened. Jack is so right about Islamaphobia on the rise. That is just horrible and what about the immigrants that Trump says are poisoning the blood of America and are vermin and animals. This is right out of Mein Kampf.. Love to all, thanks for your friendship. 💗Joanie

Glen Hirose

       Sorry Jack,

       I wish that I had the faith in political resolutions that you have, but I don't. 

       When you shake hands with the antichrist make sure you count your fingers...

Jack Mallory

I am almost as skeptical as you, Glen, but if we don't try political resolutions first where does that leave us? Actually first, and again, and again if necessary, when the alternative is war. 
 

Not hard to get me to quote Hemingway: "Never think that war, no matter how necessary nor how justified, is not a crime. Ask the infantry, and ask the dead."

And I'd say, ask the civilians as well. Maybe even ask them first. 

Jack Mallory

The eclipse from the first paddle of the year. The eclipse may have only been partial, but my shoulders feel totaled. Suncook running strong!

As total as it got. As if someone had surreptitiously slipped very dark glasses over your eyes. And the temperature dropped 5 degrees or so very quickly!
 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Jack Mallory

I haven't re-posted anything from Heather Cox Richardson in quite awhile. But I thought some of her comments from a couple of weeks ago were worth noting, especially given the vicious language about immigrants commonly in use by our president and other right-wing xenophobes. 
 

"In the past days, we have learned that the six maintenance workers killed when the bridge collapsed were all immigrants, natives of Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador. Around 39% of the workforce in the construction industry around Baltimore and Washington, D.C., about 130,000 people, are immigrants, Scott Dance and María Luisa Paúl reported in the Washington Post yesterday.

"Some of the men were undocumented, and all of them were family men who sent money back to their home countries, as well. From Honduras, the nephew of one of the men killed told the Associated Press, 'The kind of work he did is what people born in the U.S. won’t do. People like him travel there with a dream. They don’t want to break anything or take anything.'

"In the Philadelphia Inquirer today, journalist Will Bunch castigated the right-wing lawmakers and pundits who have whipped up native-born Americans over immigration, calling immigrants sex traffickers and fentanyl dealers, and even 'animals.' Bunch illustrated that the reality of what was happening on the Francis Scott Key Bridge when it collapsed creates an opportunity to reframe the immigration debate in the United States.

"Last month, Catherine Rampell of the Washington Post noted that immigration is a key reason that the United States experienced greater economic growth than any other nation in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic. The surge of immigration that began in 2022 brought to the U.S. working-age people who, Director Phill Swagel of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office wrote, are expected to make the U.S. gross domestic product about $7 trillion larger over the ten years from 2023 to 2034 than it would have been otherwise. Those workers will account for about $1 trillion dollars in revenues​.

"Support for immigration has waxed and waned repeatedly since then, but as recently as 1989, Republican president Ronald Reagan said: 'We lead the world because, unique among nations, we draw our people—our strength—from every country and every corner of the world. And by doing so we continuously renew and enrich our nation…. Thanks to each wave of new arrivals to this land of opportunity, we're a nation forever young, forever bursting with energy and new ideas, and always on the cutting edge, always leading the world to the next frontier. This quality is vital to our future as a nation. If we ever closed the door to new Americans, our leadership in the world would soon be lost.'

"The workers who died in the bridge collapse on Tuesday 'were not poisoning the blood of our country', Will Bunch wrote, quoting Trump; 'they were replenishing it…. They may have been born all over the continent, but when these men plunged into our waters on Tuesday, they died as Americans.'"

https://open.substack.com/pub/heathercoxrichardson/p/march-28-2024?r=asnwm&utm_medium=ios

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)